Welcome to the third episode of Superpowers at Work, produced by Siero Media, where host Sissy Siero is joined by Brandon Jerrod, a Siero Media friend and colleague. In a deeply vulnerable and honest conversation, Brandon  shares the importance of inclusive language at work. They unpack past workplace experiences where they did not feel welcomed, and how future employers can rethink ways of engaging. It’s an eye-opening and essential conversation for anyone looking to create workplaces with a sense of belonging.  

Learn more about Siero Media at sieromedia.com and subscribe on your favorite podcast app!

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Transcript

Brandon: My name is Brandon Jerrod. I use they/them pronouns and I am first and foremost a human. 

[Music in]

I am black, fat, queer, all the above. And an artist, a creative, a dork. Yeah, here I am.

SISSY: I'm Sissy Siero, and today on Superpowers at Work, we're talking about inclusive language and how much it matters for our sense of belonging.

[Music out]

I want to give a shoutout to my colleague Brandon for being so transparent and so brave to share their story with us. They really wanted to be of service here for other people too but, you know, it takes a lot to share from the heart like this.

Sissy: What do you mean by dork? I never really understood that term? What does it mean to you?

Brandon: First off, I'm a Gemini, so we do a lot of everything. [Laughing] Um…

Sissy: Nice! 

Brandon: So, um, I'm a classically trained trombonist. So, um, I played classical and jazz music. So I was literally a band dork, um, with a bass trombone on my back. Um, I also love video games. I dabbled for a while in Magic the Gathering. I love um SciFi and fantasy books and stories and movies. So, you know, like, you know, a little bit of everything. Like, I'm definitely -  

Sissy: Ah, I didn't know you were a musician. That's wonderful. 

Brandon: Yeah.

Sissy: Yeah, that's where I started too.

Brandon: Really?

Sissy: Yeah. Yeah. I still, I still am. I just don't have as much time to dedicate to it as I would like.

Brandon: Instrumentalist or vocalist?

Sissy: Um, singing, starting when I was about, you know, well, I don't know, in my teens, I guess, taking lessons, classical lessons as well. And then I realized the opera world was not going to be ready for me, so I should not do that. So, uh, then I got a guitar, and it was, you know, that time in the world where that's, that was what was happening. [Laughing]

Brandon: I'm envious. I definitely inherited the musical gene from my family, but I didn't inherit the vocal ability. [Laughing] So, I was always jealous of people who could sing.

Sissy: Yeah, but to be able to play, you know, to really, to be able to play, express yourself in any way, I think to express yourself anyway is a, is such a gift– 

Brandon: Oh I agree. 

Sissy: such a divine gift.

Brandon: We're very lucky.

Sissy: Right? 

Brandon: There's, there's a magic in storytelling in all forms. And I personally as a person who's a creative, who loves other creatives, I feel that we have the most impact in changing the world.

SISSY: Brandon was always the highlight of our marketing meetings at Siero Media, always bringing joy and heart even over Zoom. What pains me is to hear how that respect is not always extended back to them. 

Brandon: It's really sad, but like, I, I, walk through the world knowing that there's very few places where I'm going to experience belonging. You know, a lot of people tote and speak towards culture and belonging, but they actually don't bring it to practice. And, of course, me being so hyper marginalized, you know, like, I'm not only queer and feminine and a non-binary person, but you add the extra layer of me also being black and being dark skinned, like it's, you know, it, it creates a very unique experience where, um, yeah, I'm, I'm hyper visible and also invisible at the same time.

Sissy: Oh. Can you talk more about that?

Brandon: Oh yeah. 

Sissy: Yeah. That's just, that's so, Ugh. I went right in my heart when you said that. 

Brandon: It's really sad, especially whenever you have instances where, like, even if, for example, if the team is all black, just within the black experience, I often am an outlier because of my queerness. Yeah, like, it's a, you know, intersectionality, like I am oftentimes a token for so many things at the same time. So where, like, my existence is a front to the status quo, but at the same time, like, because people don't want to acknowledge or oftentimes don't want to acknowledge, true, like, belonging and, inclusion, you know, like, it, it makes my experience in particular like, very, very awful.

Sissy: Hmm. Because their uncomfortability, right? I think it's so much about that, and I specifically wanted to ask you about your pronouns, and those pronouns being misused or not, not being acknowledged or respected. 

Brandon: I always, whenever I introduce myself, I acknowledge, you know, my pronouns, whether other people do or, or not - 

Sissy: Right. 

Brandon: Just because I know for me, this is me. And if we're going to be working eight to ten hours a day, like, I don't want you to misgender me all day. That's really going to get on my nerve. This particular company that I'm working for, I knew off of the reputation of the company that it was one that is a little bit more conservative. They may donate to pride parades here and there, but in terms of the internal systems, like, it's, it's not a place that bre - breeds culture. [Laughing]

So, um, you know, I've already been disregarded and misgendered constantly. The training is being conducted on Zoom,so you're able to change your name and I even put they/them after my name as that extra, you know, visual cue of whenever you're referring to me, try to use these pronouns. I get “sir’d” and “he'd” like all day. So, that's been festive.

Sissy: I am so sorry that you're, you're experiencing that. I truly am. I, you know, and it's, it's, it's so interesting to me that people can still be unaware or, as I like to say, purposefully oblique to these very, very important distinctions. So you said that people are doing this like a lot, your team. Do you correct them? Do you talk to a manager? How do you, how do you navigate that in a job?

Brandon: Well, at this point, it's very much quiet correction whenever it happens. Someone will say, say, you know, Brandon, he, or like his, sir, and I would just, you know, politely remind, it’s like, “Hey, my, my pronouns are they / them.” Because there's this, this misconception of all non-binary people reacting violently towards being misgendered, which also, if they do, is probably because, you know, they've been micro aggressed all day or for a while, so it's not like this is, you know, happening in the vacuum. Um..

Sissy: Right, right. Right.

Brandon: But, um, yeah, like it's, right now, I'm trying to wear a smile and do it politely, quietly.  But, to be honest, just looking at the organization and based off of even past experience, like I, I doubt that there's, there's going to be many that or anyone that can advocate for me higher up. So it's, it's just going to be an experience that I have to shoulder. 

Sissy: Well, I hate to hear that. What would you say, like, so for people who are scared to say the wrong thing, what would be the best etiquette coming from your perspective about asking people about preferred pronouns because some of this is just very basic and we have to let folks know.

Brandon: Yeah. Absolutely. So, um, I think it's really important to re-examine how we approach how we introduce ourselves and introduce other people. Whether it's a verbal one on one meeting, a meeting, like, amongst people. Even whenever I was a recruiter and we did hiring events, I advocated for pronouns on the actual name badges so people would feel comfortable, whether they had pronouns that were not aligned to what they were assigned to at birth or not. And, you know, for the people who are scared, there's nothing wrong with saying, “Hey, hi, you know, hi Sissy, nice to see you. What are your preferred pronouns?” 

Sissy: As easy as that. 

Brandon: Or, if you get it wrong, “Oh, I'm so, I'm so sorry.” And correct yourself. Like, even I, as a non binary person, like, I misgender people all the time. Like it, it happens. 

[Music in]

Sissy: When did you first realize that you wanted to identify as they/them?

Brandon: It was the pandemic, uh, that's whenever I had the time to sit -

Sissy: Okay. 

Brandon: To sit with it and to really acknowledge my experience and a lot of the pain points that I felt in my identity as a man, right. Trying to create this new example of something that I had no connection to. It was really hilarious because during the lockdown, I went and I logged into my Tumblr and a few years ago, I learned of different forms of gender queerness and non binary was starting to be used as a term, and I was starting to actually like, identify with it, but I didn't make a change at that point because, I had to get up, go to work, like, all those things. I didn't have time to really sit with what I had just discovered. But, um, yeah, it, it made sense, like, my whole experience, my childhood, my teenage years up until now, like, it, it's not, it's not binary. I'm not binary. [Laughing]

Sissy: Yeah.

Brandon: Yeah, so uhm.. Yeah, it was, it was the, the pandemic actually having time to sit with myself to where I was like, yeah, this, this doesn't fit. 

So in corporate spaces and in spaces where there's not really a developed relationship, I, I strictly use they/them pronouns. But specifically in queer spaces, I'm definitely fine with gendered pronouns, but, uh, leaning more towards feminine. So like, if you were to call me sis or girl, like…

Sissy: Yeah.

Brandon: My friends, like, “Oh, she mad today.” Like that's, that's like - [Laughing]

Sissy: Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Brandon: You know, like that.. but that's something that is, um, you know, that people who are  in, yeah, like in spaces with me.

Sissy: They’re your friends.Yeah, where there's trust and love.

Brandon: Yes, and who are also queer. So like, they, they have that shared experience. But like, if it's like a - 

Sissy: Saying it with love. 

Brandon: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Sissy: Yeah. 

Brandon: (sighs) (Laughing)

Sissy: I, I, I just, I'm sorry. I just have like a ha, I just feel, I feel sad that you're, I'm glad you have a job that you've been wanting, but I'm just sad that it's in a company where you don't feel like someone would even advocate for you. I just can't stand hearing that. 

Brandon: Yeah, and like, it's not…It's not even like a job that like I want. It's a job that like I need to be able to pay my bills. [Laughing] Like it’s…

Sissy: Yeah. Yeah. I relate to that. So, you talked, just briefly about right now, I guess, feeling othered in the new team that you're part of. 

Brandon: Um, so, as soon as I came to terms with it, I started identifying at work as nonbinary. 

Brandon: I became like a tech support agent at a company called Jamf. That was glorious like it was a very respectful, very, um, beautiful team. There were other people who were non-binary. It's a very large company. There was a queer presence there. And then also, the people who typically work at Jamf are often former Apple employees. So, um, there's an understanding around culture, at least. So, like, I felt very comfortable there.

Sissy: Was there a specific person there, or just was a general sense of it like we’re open to you?

Brandon: Oh, it's a general sense. Yeah.

Sissy: That’s nice to hear.

Brandon:  Like Jamf is like an amazing company.

[Music in]

SISSY: So there are so many great companies out there, like Jamf and Apple, doing the hard work to help people feel comfortable.  Brandon also had a not-so-positive story from another company, and while we don’t want to point fingers or name names, it’s a great example of how policies can become outdated even if they start off with respectful intentions.

Brandon: Because, you know, I'm a trans person, I had a viewpoint that a lot of people did not acknowledge, one of them being the drug testing policy. Their, their policy is if you fail the drug test the first time, um, you have to retake it but it has to be supervised and the person supervising you - their, their gender marker has to match the person that they're supervising. And, you know, me being a trans person in community with other trans people, especially binary trans people, I was like, that's, that's a problem. Like, what about people who have not changed their gender markers yet? Like, I know a lot of people who like, you will look at them and you will think that they're cis, and like, whether they have passing privilege or not, like, that doesn't matter. This is, this is a person who identifies as a man or a woman, and, you know, because of systematic oppression, they, they can’t immediately change their gender markers. So, how, why are we, like, faulting them? Why are we making an experience where not only they are uncomfortable, but also the person who is observing them is uncomfortable. [Laughing]

Sissy: Right. Right. Right.

Brandon: Like it's, it's, it's a weird, um, antiquated policy. 

Sissy: There’s no reason for that. 

Brandon: Yeah, so I was like the only person to, you know, raise my hand and say, um, this isn't right and like there was, um, I forget her name, but she was like, thank you. Like, I've been saying that for years, but the directors were not listening to her. 

Sissy: And did they listen, did they listen to you then? How was that received and what happened?

Brandon: To my knowledge, there's not been a change of the policy. However, like, there are, you know, things that I voiced where I did see change, but I'm not sure if they made an amendment to that policy at this point.

Sissy: I can't tell you how I appreciate you talking about all this because these are the specific problems that people are dealing with all the time. And again, as you said at the beginning, and as we all know, there's a lot of pretending and posturing to make that change, make that cultural change. Let's all wave those pride flags! Okay, put them away. 

Brandon: Exactly. 

Sissy: We're in July.

Brandon: Right?

Sissy: What do you feel like, from these experiences? Do you have strategies, you know, around creating an inclusive work environment, you know, that you've experienced?

Brandon: It really depends on my role. Like whenever, um, I have more of a senior position, so whenever I was working, in HR or whenever I was a manager, I made it a point to demonstrate and lead with empathy and understanding and read up and just be versed on the experiences of many different people. Like there's, like there's so much I learned in being a leader like that's whenever I learned about, like, fibrosis and like it's like, oh my god, this is happening to your body. Yes. Take an extra break. Like, you know? [Laughing]

Sissy: Yes, exactly.

Brandon: So like it is so important to, to lead with empathy and understanding. So like whenever I actually have the power in my title, I, I know and see it as a responsibility to wield it to where I'm creating space for not just me to ascend and to have power or to, get my bonus [Laughing], but for the people that I'm leading to be happy because when they're happier, they're going to perform better. 

[Music in]

SISSY: Huge thanks to Brandon for sharing their experiences with us. Respectful pronoun use and inclusive language are vital for workplace belonging, and these stories remind us why. 

Big shout out to our amazing crew, producer, and sound designer, Ray Kantrowitz, our fantastic assistant producer and communications expert, Ilana Nevins, and our mixing and mastering wizard, Samantha Gatzik. And don't miss out—give us a like and make sure to subscribe to Superpowers at Work on your preferred podcast platform. It's a small ask, teeny, tiny. [Laughing]  I'm Sissy Siero. Be well!

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